Rules & Regulations Summary when posting topics

[tsgfilmwerks]

I've noticed (through only the few topics I've looked through here, mind you) that there are usually problems stemming from people not knowing the rules.

What if there was a summary of these rules in the top of the topic posting page (I'm not exactly sure what its called). For one, people would be reminded not to post irrelevant topics or replies (as well as what the term "irrelevant" means). Also, you [moderators] would look less like pompous jerks who lock/remove threads with even the smallest hints of irrelevancy and more like the noble, respectable & hard-working individuals you are when people are warned of the rules while they are posting their threads.

Yes, the rules are on the top of the forum. No, you [moderators] have no reason to apply such a minimal suggestion (since, you know, the effort could actually kill you), given the moral high-ground of being forum moderators.

[bibbit]

It's already very clear to everyone that the rules should be read before posting. I believe it is mentioned when a user registers, and the Rules section has READ FIRST in bold print in the title. Users are left with no excuse.

And God forbid you don't be an ass about it as well.

[tsgfilmwerks]

It's already very clear to everyone that the rules should be read before posting. I believe it is mentioned when a user registers, and the Rules section has READ FIRST in bold print in the title. Users are left with no excuse.

No, you [moderators] have no reason to apply such a minimal suggestion (since, you know, the effort could actually kill you), given the moral high-ground of being forum moderators.

[bibbit]

I will leave that up to the mods, but there wasn't really a reason to post that again.

[LegendaryModder]

yea, thats right

[tsgfilmwerks]

I will leave that up to the mods, but there wasn't really a reason to post that again.

I was emphasizing why there wasn't really a need for you to post your reply, as it had already been covered.

[Tural]

Unnecessary clutter on the posting page. If people don't follow the rules, they are at fault and they will accept the consequences.

[tsgfilmwerks]

Unnecessary clutter on the posting page. If people don't follow the rules, they are at fault and they will accept the consequences.

But... they aren't... they're complaining. If you could look at this objectively while listening to a small fraction of the sarcasm that you constantly dish out at nearly every opportunity that you can possibly find, you might find this to be at least a little helpful.

Even if it only gets people to lessen their complaints.

[Tural]

Complaints will still be made. Those people know the rules are there, so why would putting them in an annoying place make them less apt to complain? You should be saying we need to add more to the rules, not put them in a place that is obnoxious. Did the complaint recently address a rule somewhere? No, it was a judgment by staff members, not an explicit rule-breaking, so that goes against your case to say that they're complaining, because the complaints don't come about explicit rule violations, they come from staff judgments. Your suggestion is completely pointless if you're just going to put the rules in more places, because obviously the rules' location are not the issue here, it is the nature of the rules. Furthermore, we will not be doing it to reduce complaints, because we can't say "You're not allowed to complain," because then this board would be pointless. There is not a single thing you can do to reduce complaints, because you cannot tell people they cannot complain. So really, I fail to see a single thing you have presented as being worthwhile. In addition to all of this, you aren't a staff member, so it doesn't affect you at all anyways. As a final note, only an admin could add this, and Iron_Forge will also tell you that it's completely unnecessary clutter, so you can stop with the comments about staff, such as "since, you know, the effort could actually kill you," regardless of sarcasm. Everything you've said so far is pretty much illogical. I'll break it down in a bit.

I've noticed (through only the few topics I've looked through here, mind you) that there are usually problems stemming from people not knowing the rules.

Rarely does it come from an ignorance of the rules, because a lot of the complaints are not about explicit rule violations, but about decisions made based on staff judgments.

What if there was a summary of these rules in the top of the topic posting page (I'm not exactly sure what its called).

Then it would be annoying every time you post.

For one, people would be reminded not to post irrelevant topics or replies (as well as what the term "irrelevant" means).

If they're making an off-topic reply, they're probably well aware of it. Furthermore, if someone does that, they can be reported and dealt with by staff, and if they have an issue with that, they can post it here. We will never tell people they are not allowed to complain, even if there was a notice at the top, because that notice is already in the rules, and we could say they aren't allowed to complain because of that. How does location change their ability to complain? As staff, we'd be just as able to say "It's in the rules, complaint locked" as we would be to say "It's on the top of the posting page, complaint locked."

Also, you [moderators] would look less like pompous jerks who lock/remove threads with even the smallest hints of irrelevancy

As staff, we'd be just as able to say "It's in the rules, complaint locked" as we would be to say "It's on the top of the posting page, complaint locked." Location, again, changes absolutely nothing, at all, in any way.

Also, you [moderators] would look more like the noble, respectable & hard-working individuals you are when people are warned of the rules while they are posting their threads.

How would people like us more if their stuff is removed? They can see the rules already, and that doesn't stop them. That point is completely unreasonable and illogical.

Yes, the rules are on the top of the forum.

Yep, and we don't need to shove them in everyone's face, because the volume of complaints is incredibly minimal compared to the volume of action taken. We get maybe one complaint out of every 100 actions we do, it's fine, really. It doesn't affect you at all.

No, you [moderators] have no reason to apply such a minimal suggestion (since, you know, the effort could actually kill you), given the moral high-ground of being forum moderators.

You're right, we don't. On top of that, it's physically impossible for any moderator to add a mod such as that. So nice job with the condescending/sarcastic comments which are doing nothing other than dissuading staff from agreeing with you.

So all I see here are faults with your plan, and not a single valid benefit from it. Every single point you have presented is based on the notion that putting the rules in everyone's face would stop complaining, but the complaints are not only not a significant issue, but are going to be encouraged. We'd rather have people discuss the action than just saying "The rules were on the posting page, you're not allowed to complain." I don't know how to stress this any more. Do you understand that the location of rules would not enable us to stop people from complaining? I would like a yes or no answer, please.

I hate to do this again, but this decision is going to stand. Iron_Forge is not going to add the clutter, and even if he did, we would not be able to use it to enforce anything, so it would be purely for show, as it would have no impact on actions taken by staff members, and shouldn't have any impact on complaints being made. We'd be doing it solely as a security blanket effect. It would not, and should not, change anything. It would actually be bad if we used that to cut down on complaints, because it would make it more of the staff saying "We're right, you're not allowed to challenge us," which is what everyone hates so much. The answer is no.

[thinkreddie]

Say, Tural, I think it would be a good idea to make newcomers take and pass a quiz on the rules before they can post. In fact, I think a monthly test on the forum rules should be required for all members who want posting privileges. I know it sounds kind of stupid and disrespectful, but there are LOTS of middle-schoolers who post on these forums, many of which think that they already know the rules, and never bother to read anything.

Please consider this...

[Tural]

I can't implement that, and it would be tedious and annoying.
'I want to make a post, oh wait, I have to go take this quiz, even though I've never done anything wrong, and the amount of people who break rules, relative to those who don't, is a small minority.'

Trust me, staff don't need any of this annoying 'help,' be it from a message on every post window, or a test periodically. There's a report system for rule violations, and it works just fine to handle the issues that occur. There aren't a huge volume of problems with the low-activity community, and there's no reason to make any of these changes at this time, or any time in the foreseeable future. The only way that would even be viable is if we could flag individual users to have to take the test, which would be a hassle for them, and dissuade them from continuing to be a part of the community. A post from a staff member, or a PM from one, will do just as well to advise a user to read the rules. If they do something more, then the Readers Club gives them another chance to read the rules. This system works, and we don't need to be pushing things out in people's faces for them to follow the rules. That is not what this site is about.

Also, I don't think 'reading the rules' is a fair judge of posting. I never read the rules for my own use, save sig rules, until after I was a staff member, and I never had issue with following them. Just because someone can't answer a specific question about a specific rule, does not mean they should be restricted from posting. That system would be flawed, in addition to it being unnecessary.

In short, there is no need for any additions to "help" the staff manage people breaking rules, really. No, really, it's alright. There is nothing that needs to be added. If the staff needed something, we would ask the proper people. The members do not need to be trying to help the staff with these additions, really. We know what the issues are, and we know how to resolve them. We got this, really. Really.

[SpecOp44]

What's with the recent want for change on the forums? Everything is fine the way it is...

[Corvette19]

What's with the recent want for change on the forums? Everything is fine the way it is...

People like variety.
I agree though.

[tsgfilmwerks]

Then it would be annoying every time you post.

Umm... no, it wouldn't be (if you code & design it reasonably). It could be like facebook, where the rules would be in a box that would start out minimized when the page opened, and would expand if the user clicked on it. You do not have to shoot the idea down the second I give it, Tural.

By the way, my arguments were based on the technical aspects & effectiveness of such implementation, as well as the addition of reasonable changes. I'm just saying that if a small summary of the rules was posted, people might find it easier to stay on topic, since they aren't.

And I never said that you had to do this. I'm just thinking about alternatives to being so... "rigid" about such topics.

[Geo]

If people aren't going to bother reading and familiarising themselves with the rules when they sign up, what makes you think they're going to bother 'expanding' this rules section out of choice to get in the way of their posting?

[Corvette19]

If people aren't going to bother reading and familiarising themselves with the rules when they sign up, what makes you think they're going to bother 'expanding' this rules section out of choice to get in the way of their posting?

Good point.

[bcnipod]

If people aren't going to bother reading and familiarising themselves with the rules when they sign up, what makes you think they're going to bother 'expanding' this rules section out of choice to get in the way of their posting?

Good point.

First and foremost, there is no excuse for not reading the rules.

Staff members can judge a situation as they see fit. You can be banned even if you did something not mentioned below. Use common sense, and so will we. This doesn't mean you'll be banned randomly.. there is always a reason.

Why are you posting about the rules when you clearly don't read them.

[Tural]

Umm... no, it wouldn't be (if you code & design it reasonably). It could be like facebook, where the rules would be in a box that would start out minimized when the page opened, and would expand if the user clicked on it.

As Geo said, that assumes the reader isn't ignorant, which they obviously are if they can't follow the existing rules.

You do not have to shoot the idea down the second I give it, Tural.

Cool. Good thing you posted that, it was so relevant.

By the way, my arguments were based on the technical aspects & effectiveness of such implementation, as well as the addition of reasonable changes.

Your argument is based on the reader not being ignorant, which they are if they are not following the rules, as I said. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You say you want it to be, essentially, hidden until the user goes out of their way to bring it out and read it, but that somehow it's not valid for them to just go read the rules if they're going to have to make a conscious effort to read the rules on the posting page anyways. The foundation for your suggestion is flawed, which is why everything proceeding it is unreasonable.

I'm just saying that if a small summary of the rules was posted, people might find it easier to stay on topic, since they aren't.

And what is your basis for thinking that? There is none. You're just saying it would work in an ideal situation where the user carefully expands and reads the rules, then re-evaluates their post before hitting submit. The people who would do that are not the ignorant people posting their spam. You want an ideal situation if it helps you, but not if it hurts you. Again, your foundation is fundamentally flawed.

And I never said that you had to do this.

Nobody said you did. You're the one fighting so hard for it.

I'm just thinking about alternatives to being so... "rigid" about such topics.

Again with the illogical statements. How would this change anything? We'd still have to be "rigid" about topics when people posted off-topic replies, meaning there would be nothing changed. That is not an alternative at all, that wouldn't even make sense.

[blade22222222]

If there was going to be a new idea to get the people to read the rules I would make so when a new member signs up, they have to agree with the terms and services aka the rules. But then again no one really reads those terms and services things anyway, but hey its just a suggestion.

[Tural]

They do have to agree to the terms and services...