Law of Conservation of Mass

[WaeV]

I didn't mean the universe was shaped like the klein bottle per se.

The klein bottle has only one "side" yet is curved such that it has no boundaries. I compared the universe to the klein bottle in that the universe as we experience it is 3d yet has no boundaries.

[CompKronos]

Oh, I wasn't sure if it had been posted and was too lazy to check.

Could you explain why the klein bottle is 4d? If I had to guess I would say because of the part where the tube goes through the side; it would need to be four-dimensional to not intersect, I think.

precisely in 4d there is no intersection in our 3 dimensions it would "appear" to intersect but actually no. Although the blown Klein bottles and hats are intersecting, we cannot to the best of my knowledge build anything 4d.
Bottle hat

yes you can shelter your head with four hypothetical dimensions of wool, woo!

as far as it being infinite not having a shape and starting

You, dear reader, Us and Life is the start of the loop.
The loop doesn't have a start, it only does because we believe it should have a start, what was before the big bang stuff and after the inverse there will be stuff.
Because we have perception we think there is a start.

also to abe, numbers are infinite right (excluding infinity +1 and all that), well we define the set of the numbers that make up the inifinte spaces as rings.

The natural set is infinte
The Rational set is infinite
The complex set is infinite
and maybe even the transcendental set is infinite

yet while the natural set is inside the rational set they are both aleph null big, aleph nul is the size of infinity, and in fact there has been a hotel constructed that is about as large as that (this is a joke of a mathematical theory).

Infinity has a size so why not warp it?

[AbeFroman]

but what i mean is infinity has no size that we, as humans, can actually imagine. aleph null, can u imagine the size or shape of aleph nul in your head(unless, of course, you are Chuck Norris)? as soon as you do. Given the concept of infinity, the universe will say "oh, wait, i forgot to tell you, infinity is that plus infinitybillion and five! haha lolz!" (but if the universe told that to Chuck Norris he would roundhouse kick it in the face)

[CompKronos]

but what i mean is infinity has no size that we, as humans, can actually imagine. aleph null, can u imagine the size or shape of aleph nul in your head(unless, of course, you are Chuck Norris)? as soon as you do. Given the concept of infinity, the universe will say "oh, wait, i forgot to tell you, infinity is that plus infinitybillion and five! haha lolz!" (but if the universe told that to Chuck Norris he would roundhouse kick it in the face)

aleph nul is infinity and infinity puls five, it is an ever expanding definition, we don't necessarily need to be able to contemplate something for it to be there. Like Chuck Norris' parents, because Chuck Norris just was.

[WaeV]

but what i mean is infinity has no size that we, as humans, can actually imagine. aleph null, can u imagine the size or shape of aleph nul in your head(unless, of course, you are Chuck Norris)? as soon as you do. Given the concept of infinity, the universe will say "oh, wait, i forgot to tell you, infinity is that plus infinitybillion and five! haha lolz!" (but if the universe told that to Chuck Norris he would roundhouse kick it in the face)

But we don't need to be able to physically picture a number to be able to work with it. How big is i?

[AbeFroman]

aleph nul is infinity and infinity puls five, it is an ever expanding definition, we don't necessarily need to be able to contemplate something for it to be there. Like Chuck Norris' parents, because Chuck Norris just was.

exactly, it is there, but we just cant comprehend it, being things that have beginnings and ends.
infinite expanses exist, but we've never seen one before, because it is infinite, so therefore we have a hard time picturing it. but it is, in fact, there.
i going too fast for anyone?

[CompKronos]

well you summed it up yourself so i am a having a problem understanding your discretion with it

[Prey]

At the north pole, the universe is incredibly small, but expands rapidly (the Big Bang, except without a singularity). At time goes on, the universe exands more and more, then begins to shrink at the equator. As the south pole draws nearer, the universe again shrinks and time draws to a close. You can't continue going south beyond the south pole, because south only means anything whilst on earth. Therefore south (time) is finite but has no boundaries.

But you were the one which posted that video on 'imagining 10 dimensions', which if you put your theory into would mean that going past the south pole would bring you straight back to the north pole, ?..

Perhaps if time cannot exist without space, and space cannot exist without time, then there never was a beginning.. because if there was nothing then there was no time either, so nothing could happen.. ;x

Unless there was just so much nothing, that there became something!..

[CompKronos]

well i'll wait to permanently solidify any ideas until they figure out if the higgs boson

[WaeV]

But you were the one which posted that video on 'imagining 10 dimensions', which if you put your theory into would mean that going past the south pole would bring you straight back to the north pole, ?..

The ten dimensions thing doesn't say that. (?) The ten dimensions video simply explains what the ten dimensions refer to.

At the north pole, the universe is incredibly small, but expands rapidly (the Big Bang, except without a singularity). At time goes on, the universe exands more and more, then begins to shrink at the equator. As the south pole draws nearer, the universe again shrinks and time draws to a close. You can't continue going south beyond the south pole, because south only means anything whilst on earth. Therefore south (time) is finite but has no boundaries.

Part of what I meant by this was that as time goes on the 3 physical dimensions of the universe increase.

The size of the universe increases with time; the outer edge being the light given off by the big bang. Assuming the big crunch will follow, eventually everything (including the light) will be sucked back to the center of the universe. The universe DOES have a finite size.

Perhaps if time cannot exist without space, and space cannot exist without time, then there never was a beginning

Exactly. There wasn't anything "before" the universe, because time is relative to the universe.

[Hawaiian Modder]

Wow I think I've changed my views on how the universe started about 4 times after reading this thread. I don't even know what to say.

My initial opinion was that once upon a non-time, there was all 10 dimensions in a small atom sized object called the "Universe". Through a series of unknown events all 10 dimensions (Now I believe there might be 11) were flung out in seconds. Since then the universe and all 10(Or 11) dimensions have been expanding. That time did, at one point start, and that at the end of this giant expansion there will be a point in time where the universe collapses and everything that ever happened is back into the atom sized object called the "Universe". Then the process will repeat, hopefully, but most likely not, yielding a completely different result.

[WaeV]

Lol, yeah that seems to be the common root of most of the theories.

New idea / postulate:
The universe didn't just spring from nothing, it's sort of like a 7th dimensional statue, and we travel along the 4th dimension, experiencing our lives in the momentary 3rd dimension, while feeling the effects of the 5th and 6th dimensions.

Just as the earth's surface has no boundaries (where does the surface end?) this 7th dimensional "statue" has no boundaries.

[Aumaan Anubis]

the universe collapses and everything that ever happened is back into the atom sized object called the "Universe". Then the process will repeat, hopefully, but most likely not, yielding a completely different result.

Can you imagine that? I was provoked into that idea at a different time, and it is quite mind boggling. To imagine that the Big Bang - Big Crunch cycle we're in has actually occured multiple times? So, really, we're just the Nth civilization to have done what we, as humans, have accomplished("N" being the number of cycles that've occured). To imagine that, trillions of years ago, humans were formed quite like we are now, though in a different cycle. They did everything we've done, and more. They've thought these same exact thoughts, and discussed these same exact things. Our civilization is just a copy of previous ones.

This is of course, assuming, that the big bang yielded the same exact results as ours previous one did. As with current accepted beliefs of the universe and time, human existence is the tick of a second on a 24 hour clock. But with multiple cycles? Useless. '

I'm currently leaning toward this idea in my beliefs. Can't yet see a reason not to.

[CompKronos]

They did everything we've done, and more. They've thought these same exact thoughts, and discussed these same exact things. Our civilization is just a copy of previous ones.

Turals

[WaeV]

So maybe you were right after all about reaching the "south pole" of time and reappearing at the north, CompKronos!

[G.I.R.]

Philly was right when he said this was philosophical. In fact, this only adds more paradox's.

Such as?

Do I really need to explain this? To say there was never nothing implies that there was always something, this in itself is a logical and scientific paradox. (It's also what Atheists so often bring up in arguments against the existence of God). You can post all the pictures of 3d or 4d loops as you want, but each loop has a beginning. Forgive me for this crude analogy, but imagine if you will, that there was going to be a NASCAR race that lasted forever, while ignoring all the technical impossibilities of this, that looped race needs a beginning in both time and space, the flag needs to be waved and there needs to be a start line. So in short, every loop needs a beginning, and before the beginning of any loop there was obviously no loop, no race, aka, nothing. I don't know how well this conveys my meaning, but I hope you get the drift of it.

Which is why I said what I said a few pages back. There was a bunch of different kinds of matter (cars), and then the Big Bang Happened (start of the race). The whole, "Matter cannot be created nor destroyed" thing doesn't fit very well with the analogy though...

Not completely on topic, but I remember reading an interesting story about mankind creating a computer that could simulate the universe from the Big Bang to present day, and they could modify the universe they were simulating. However, they too were also a simulation within an even larger simulation. They could modify whatever they wanted, but the modifications they made could would also affect their universe because they weren't the top 'layer.' Therefore, only the top layer could make any changes without also affecting their own universe. If they turned off the simulation, they killed themselves, in essence.

If I can find the website with the whole story, I'll post a link. The guy who wrote it has a lot of pseudo-scientific/theoretical short stories that are explained in a way that a lot of them sound plausible.

[noxiousraccoon]

So which Matrix are we in?

[Trulife8342]

Your still alive?

[xXShadowCowXx]

Technically, we haven't figured out that we can't destroy matter/energy, for all we know, there could be some form of antimatter floating out there, we just haven't found it yet.
I wouldn't say that anything is impossible or just cant be done, because we haven't discovered everything, and we never will, because everything is as never-ending as the universe. as long as there's a universe, there will always be an infinant amount of materials and answers. i also agree with froman and say that matter just existed, because the thought of what created what is impossible, because then you can just say what created that? and so on and so fourth.
Humanity will come to an end eventually, then a new species will take over, then another, then another, then another, wether or not its actually advanced as we are or more advanced it doesn't matter.
I think the point of life is to mark that "we were here" for the next species, not find why are we here, because some people already know.
if you disagree, thats just your opinion, you do what you want with it. but i stand by mine.

i think this thread has brought out the inner-nerd in all of us

I agree with sullivan, with all the crap that happens nowadays no surprise to me we would come to an end. As for another species taking over bit iffy, as I think evolution is a load of crap. This question of where we came from is infinite if you think about it, which is hard because of how infinite it is. So think this if someone created us where did they come from? Ouch, infinite questions hurt.

[WaeV]

Not completely on topic, but I remember reading an interesting story about mankind creating a computer that could simulate the universe from the Big Bang to present day, and they could modify the universe they were simulating. However, they too were also a simulation within an even larger simulation. They could modify whatever they wanted, but the modifications they made could would also affect their universe because they weren't the top 'layer.' Therefore, only the top layer could make any changes without also affecting their own universe. If they turned off the simulation, they killed themselves, in essence.

If I can find the website with the whole story, I'll post a link. The guy who wrote it has a lot of pseudo-scientific/theoretical short stories that are explained in a way that a lot of them sound plausible.

That's a neat idea for science fiction, but that wouldn't work in theory because the more you know about a particle's exact position the less you can know about its velocity. (The uncertainty principle)