This whole development "system" is awful.

ricwhite · Post by **ricwhite** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:00 am

After playing with 3DS Max and the HEK tools for a week, all I can say is how awful it is creating video games in this manner.

What a tedious, frustrating, time comsuming, error riddled, hit and miss, tiring process to go through. I have more respect now for video game developers.

However, with all the great minds out there with technology, why hasn't a more simple method been developed?

Granted, I am just learning 3D graphics. I'm sure it will take over a year or so working with 3DS Max in order to understand it fully. But I was under the impression that if I downloaded the HEK tutorials and obtained the 3DS max program, I could work my way -- steo by step -- through the process to create a simple map.

No so. The HEK tutorial is very poorly designed. It "assumes" the reader has a lot of knowledge and background and glosses over VERY important information required for successful creation of a maps.

Kirk's tutorial is more precise and adds many steps that the HEK tutorial has left out. But even Kirk's tutorial is lacking is precise information.

One of the main problems with creating a level is the lack of "error" information until you export it. What I have been forced to do is to work for a few minutes, save, export, tool it and see if it complies and repeat that process over and over and over. (My current level I have exported and tooled 27 different times with small progressions).

When you DO get an error message and import the error file, it really gives very little information about how to correct it. I find it easier to go back to a previous working save and start over from there.

The problems are so frequent and the solutions so "hidden" that a novice developer has to "search" the forums or web or tutorials for any "hints" as to how to solve them. That is why these boards are so full of "help me" posts.

I've spent probably 50 hours or so the last week (vacation) trying to make a simple map and I FINALLY made it to the point of a level with some hills and valleys and some simple bases which were successfully exported. Now I'm to the point of compiling it in tool.exe, which appears to work except that it does NOT make a "senerio" only a "bsp" which means I cannot go on to Guerilla to work with the tags. WHY it doesn't make a senerio is a mystery. That's one of those "hidden" secrets that -- so far after 3 hours of searching -- I have yet to find an answer to. All the tutorials say it should.

I've pieced together the "information" from the tutorials as best I could and now am stuck again until I am able to fix this "glitch" (which, by the way, is glitch number 4,361).

My opinion -- they shouldn't have released the HEK tools and tutorial until they were MUCH more comprehensive and helpful.

I hope in the future they can come up with a much more simple and easier way to make video game levels.

MJBoa · Post by **MJBoa** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:37 am

I hardly ever get errors, ever. If you don't make them, you don't have to fix them. Don't make open edges, don't create multiple edges, and don't mess up UVW maps. The HEK was my first time with 3d modeling too.

gamer49 · Post by **gamer49** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:22 pm

dude shut ur moth i can agree that they should creat like a "error tut " but if u think it is such a wast of time then dont do it

ricwhite · Post by **ricwhite** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:56 pm

MJBoa wrote:I hardly ever get errors, ever. If you don't make them, you don't have to fix them. Don't make open edges, don't create multiple edges, and don't mess up UVW maps. The HEK was my first time with 3d modeling too.

I'm glad you're experience has been good. I think you're the exception, however. If you look at the forums, you will notice many threads about "problems" with level creation.

The HEK tutorial is woefully lacking as it the support system. If they want to have people create mods, they should support it with detailed information about how to do it and correct problems that will undoubtedly creep up along the way.

Some -- such as Kirk -- have stepped in and helped out by doing what should have been done in the first place.... a more detailed video presentation of steps. (BTW....thanks Kirk)

But the support system is lacking. When errors occur, there is really no reliable way to problem solve them. The best way, thus far, albeit slow, are these forums. Even then, many responses are not appropriate or reliable.

My point is... if you're going to release software and ask people to create maps, you need to back it up with support and training. There is little.

I have suffered my way through the process, but I'm now stuck again.

Obtain tools and software (done)
Obtain 3DS Max (done)
Create a frame and level box in 3DS (done)
Assign ground material (done)
Ungulate the ground -- make hills and valleys (done)
Create simple bases (done)
Export file as a JMS (done)
Open tool compile (done)
Open Guerilla and modify scenerio (stuck ... no scenerio file) ??

I hope I can make it all the way through the steps. I have not even made it to Sapien yet and, by the number of posts about problems, that program appears to be a major hurdle as well.

ricwhite · Post by **ricwhite** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:00 pm

gamer49 wrote:dude shut ur moth i can agree that they should creat like a "error tut " but if u think it is such a wast of time then dont do it

Dude, I wouldn't do it if I didn't WANT to make a map. It's the process that is problematic and frustrating. I'm just expressing my wish that more detailed information be given as well as more helpful support along the way....That's all.

kaptainkommie · Post by **kaptainkommie** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:06 pm

Why do you feel Gearbox owes you a detailed tutorial or a simple way of creating levels for Halo? Its not their responsibility to teach you how to model and use the other programs. The HEK and HaloCE as of yet, officially UNSUPPORTED, so they don't have to provide any support or technical documentation on the applications. If you lack the skillsets needed for creating new maps (skinning/modelling/etc.) and the perseverence to learn these skills on your own, then you really don't need to be attemping to make maps. The HEK isn't intended for easy use by every John, Dick and Tom. Its targeted toward experienced users that can and will make the best use out of it as possible.

Danke · Post by **Danke** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:44 pm

You're out of your mind if you think they actually used this to make the game. I wish they had made it more open, so we could script in new stuff. Maybe after awhile they'll release the source code. But that won't be for probably another 10 years knowing gearbox.

MJBoa · Post by **MJBoa** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:33 am

Gearbox can't do whatever they want. The source code is Bungie's, they made the programs. This is a great way to make a level. No offense but, the majority of the people on these forums shouldn't be even trying this according to the questions they ask. Did you expect a tony hawk level editor?

GHL · Post by **GHL** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:56 pm

Ricwhite you seem to more mature than most of the people i see here, first impressions count, i see punctuation ect, nice:) so, if you want my help with the HEK please PM me some contact info (MSN?, AIM?, Email?)
i can help with mostly any questions you got, and if i dont know i will find out for you.

Superfly · Post by **Superfly** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:08 pm

MJBoa wrote:Gearbox can't do whatever they want. The source code is Bungie's, they made the programs. This is a great way to make a level. No offense but, the majority of the people on these forums shouldn't be even trying this according to the questions they ask. Did you expect a tony hawk level editor?

No they expected a FarCry editor, click and drag to make a hill.

ThabounceR · Post by **ThabounceR** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:58 am

i think creating a level that is this difficult is done for a few reasons noobs cant creatte them (no offense) and when there is one released its lways a good one

and another reason if you have an editor like FC its actually no fun to do it, this way you can create like whatever you desire, and you're proud of your map when it's finally come to an end

atleast that is my opinion, and for me it is an advantage because i love modeling things